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Comments

98332

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 22:47:41 -0500

From: Anthony Jones <ajones2@tampabay.rr.com>

It was my understanding that quilts were used to signal when it was OK to approach

safe-houses. Such signal flags would have been common. The underground railroad

was an organized directed escape system. Slaves were "conducted" along it by

trained conductors who knew all the safe houses, danger zones, and hiding places.

Maps would have been unnecessary. But, signal flags vital.

Also, 19 century Americans would well have written in a diary that they had broken

the law. Dairies were thought of differently then. They were personal and

private refuges. There is no evidence that they would fear their dairies being

siezed and used to prosecute. Many abolitionists kept detailed records of their

illegal activities, that's how we know they were abolitinists. (Remember, <all>

their activities would have been illegal in the South.)

This is a fascinating thread. Thanks.

Anthony

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 23:14:40 -0500

From: Mary Beth Goodman <mgoodman@albany.net>

To: QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: QHL: Child Abuse Quilts

Message-Id: <v04102f00b27403f047f8@[206.72.203.25]>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

I thank Kris for the opportunity and go-ahead to post this. It's not

altogether off topic, since quilts have traditionally been a canvas for

making statements about social issues, politics etc.

Child Abuse Quilts

Revealing and Healing the Pain of Child Abuse

A group of on-line quilters have made quilts in response to child abuse,

abuse prevention and violence against children.

Working in conjunction with Prevent Child Abuse New York, a state chapter

of a national abuse prevention organization, it is our hope that these

quilts will travel widely and be seen by many.

These powerful quilts are available for groups to display at events during

1999 and 2000.

There are approximately 25 quilts available, most of them smaller than 24

X 44" with a few of them smaller than 44 X 48." The quilts have a sleeve

on the back to facilitate display. Statements by each artists will be

provided.

We ask that you pay for shipping both ways, include the quilts under the

group's insurance and provide a secure display space for them

The quilts touch on many areas of abuse - physical, sexual and verbal

abuse, incest, abuse by clergy, and violence by children, as well as hope

for the healing of victims of abuse.

The quilters hail from all over the United States and use many different

techniques to make their statement against abuse.

Photos will be available soon, but for the moment, there is a web site

with "sneak peek" scans of each quilt.

http://www.fortunecity.com/victorian/whistler/218/caq1.html

If you know of a possible venue for the display of these quilts, I hope you

will contact me.

Mary Beth Goodman

Curator

mailto:mgoodman@albany.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:22:32 -0500 (EST)

From: quiltsnbears@webtv.net (Roberta Geanangel)

To: tigersoup@lisco.net

Cc: QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: Re: QHL: Re: Quaker Lace tablecloth

Message-ID: <22691-364ED598-524@mailtod-172.iap.bryant.webtv.net>

Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit

When I married for the first time in 1957 one of my prized possessions

in my hope chest was a Quaker lace tablecloth. The lace design was

outlined in a darker colored lace.

Roberta

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:49:51 -0600 (CST)

From: Phil & Lee Spanner <philspan@bucky.win.bright.net>

To: QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: QHL: Re: URR - Fact or Fiction?

Message-Id: <199811151449.IAA24984@bucky.win.bright.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>I've been reading about all of your thoughts on quilts used as signals for

>underground railroad escapes. Something we need to remember is that there

>very well may be written record of how slaves were transferred north, but

>that record was encoded for the safety of the family owning the safe house

>as well s the slaves.

Hi!

I really don't know much about this subject, so this is just my .02 cents

worth, but encoding could very well be true. From what I remember, this is

how the song "The Twelve Days of Christmas" came about. It was a code to

hide religious beliefs to protect worshipers.

However, I have read all these messages with interest. I wasn't aware that

the quilts were supposed to be actual maps. I had heard the story that the

center color of the quilt was a message indicating a safe house for slaves

to spend the night to eat and rest. Wouldn't it make sense that the

homeowners would give the directions they needed to proceed to the next safe

house rather than try to stitch this all into a quilt.

Also, didn't many of these groups of slaves have someone who was leading

them. Wouldn't they know where to go.

I also remember someone telling about how members of the family would

remember stories differently from each other. This is what happens with

stories that are not documented. Things get lost/change/added in

translation. But, the foundation for the story is still there. So I would

not be surprised that the quilts did have some meaning or message back then.

I would only wonder how much the stories had been change since then.

Oh well, I will get down off my soapbox now. I really find these stories and

discussions interesting. Even if they can't be proven, I like to hear about

them.

Later.

Lee :^)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

philspan@bucky.win.bright.net

Visit the AniLee homepage at

http://www.win.bright.net/~philspan/anilee.html

Join our swaps, mysteries, and chat list

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 08:08:10 -0800

From: Sally Ambrose <sally@televar.com>

To: QHL@cuenet.com

CC: QHL-Digest@cue.com

Subject: Re: QHL-Digest Digest V98 #331

Message-ID: <364EFC69.B8B19539@televar.com>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

A first for me--I am a lurker coming out of hiding.

The underground RR post are wonderful! I was raised in a very small village in

Ohio that was on the UGRR route. One of the safe sites was beneath the town City

Hall. The area where the travelers were hidden was miniscule in size. The site

was a favorite field trip for young students 100 years after the war.. We were

all dumb founded that more than a small child could have hidden in that space for

more than a few hours. The UGRR has been a fascination for years and yes, there

were more sites in and around my little village and no one talked about them until

long after the Civil War was ended. My great grandfather who fought in that war

also hid those traveling North before the war.

RE: Black light usuage. There are some dangers to your person if you do not use

the light appropriately. I suggest that you call a Fine Arts gallery or your

museum and take the quilt to them for scanning. The lights are generally safe,

but you do have to take practical precautions. Black lights are available from

Radio Shack or Antique & Collectors Reproduction News., PO Box 12130, DesMoines,

Iowa 50312-9403. Prices vary from $51.95 (or 3 for 43.00) up to $154.00 add

shipping costs. The expensive one is a professional, cordless light.

Sally

QHL-Digest-request@cue.com wrote:

> ------------------------------

> QHL-Digest Digest Volume 98 : Issue 331

> Today's Topics:

> QHL: Underground Railroad Web Site

> QHL: (no subject)

> QHL: The Underground

> QHL: new book

> QHL: Underground railroad

> Re: QHL: Quilts as maps

> QHL: RR quilts

> QHL: URR

> Re: QHL: Underground railroad

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 17:03:57 -0700

> From: Sven Olsson <sven@pnc.com.au>

> To: qhl@cuenet.com

> Subject: QHL: Underground Railroad Web Site

> Message-ID: <364E1A6D.7C0E@pnc.com.au>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Hello All,

> If you are interested in this subject, look at the following site.

> http://www.ugrr.org./

> Lorraine in Oz

> ------------------------------

> Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 22:18:29 -0200

> From: susan silva <woody@ior.com>

> To: QHL <QHL@cuenet.com>

> Subject: QHL: (no subject)

> Message-ID: <364CCC55.1C65@ior.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Greetings Ladies

> I'm wondering if anyone has suggestions about something "very curious".

> I purchased a friendship quilt and it is old (1850's) A note that I have

> suggests some names that should be on the quilt, yet they are not there.

> The friendship block has about 25 blocks, and about 10 do not have

> signatures. I'm wondering if they faded, washed away, or whatever. A

> friend suggested that if I took the quilt into a room where there was a

> black light, i would beable to see traces of hidden signatures, etc. I

> saw this method used on an old painting to show where restoration work

> was done, yet I am somewhat leary of any harm this black light exposure

> could do.Any ideas, feedback etc?

> Thanks,

> Susan in Spokane Wash.

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 08:34:35 -0500 (EST)

> From: JOCELYNM@delphi.com

> To: Qltldy10@aol.com, QHL@cuenet.com

> Subject: QHL: The Underground

> Message-id: <01J45OI7QLWY90SZP2@delphi.com>

> Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

> On 13-NOV-1998 17:56:22.0 Qltldy10 said to JOCELYNM

> >the way of information. I just hope he has a story from a real

> >person... if his grandmom knew someone who told a story about one

> >time, one quilt... or better yet, two families and one quilt pointing

> Beth,

> I'm still skeptical, without a primary source. I know that there have

> been several times when I've been brought up short by hearing the re-telling

> of a family legend.....sometimes by another family member, who remembers it

> quite differently, sometimes by the same person who originally told me the

> story, but now it's quite different than the way I remember it. My older

> sister and I occasionally marvel at how our parents tell stories about our

> childhoods that are quite different from how we remember it....even though

> she and I remember it exactly the same way!

> If his grandmother had heard a story from someone, she would still be a

> couple of generations removed from the actual event. Even if she heard it

> from the original person...it would be an elderly person telling a story to

> a young child, at the very best. And then, that young child grew up, had

> children and grandchildren, and told her grandson the story. That's a lot of

> years, and several tellings, and a story could certainly change some in its

> details.

> For example, I was sending Sharon pics of family quilts to use in her

> thesis defense. I told her that one block was made from scraps from my

> grandmother's dress. As I was preparing the documentation, it suddenly hit

> me: the quiltmaker was my uncle's mother-in-law, who lived in Oklahoma; my

> grandmother lived in Mississippi. Did it really make sense that in the

> height of the depression, the stepmother of a man in Oklahoma would send his

> mother-in-law scraps for quilting-- especially since she was a quilter, too?

> I checked the story again...no, my mother said, what she'd meant by her

> story was that she remembered her mother having a dress out of that

> fabric...but that she was sure that my grandmother and my uncle's

> mother-in-law had bought the yardages separately, in their own home states.

> If I hadn't thought about it, I'd've passed the story down in the family

> that Eliza Clark made a quilt that included scraps given to her by Theodocia

> Barber..... and it would have been completely false.

> Jocelyn

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 07:41:28 -0600

> From: "Sehoy L. Welshofer" <sw4quilt@bellsouth.net>

> To: "QHL" <QHL@cuenet.com>

> Subject: QHL: new book

> Message-ID: <000101be0fd4$7b473460$1e01a8c0@patrick>

> Content-Type: text/plain;

> charset="iso-8859-1"

> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Hidden In Plain View; The Secret Story Of Quilts And The Underground

> Railroad, by Tobin, Jacqueline (Preface By:Benberry, Cuesta Ray Joint

> Author:Dobard, Raymond), binding: hardcover, published: 11/1998, ISBN:

> 0385491379.

> Just checked on acses, my favorite book search source. Hidden in Plain View

> retails for $27.50 - you can buy it at A1Books USA for $22.45 which includes

> shipping.

> ----------------------------------------------------------------

> Sehoy L. Welshofer

> [mailto:slw4quilts@bellsouth.net]

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:23:15 EST

> From: Lalalawyr@aol.com

> To: QHL@cuenet.com

> Subject: QHL: Underground railroad

> Message-ID: <2161ad91.364dae73@aol.com>

> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

> In a message dated 98-11-13 16:50:39 EST, kheger@hotmail.com writes:

> << she stressed that she

> bases her conclusions on written documentation such as diaries. She

> told us that in all of her extensive research, she had never found

> conclusive evidence written in a diary or journal about quilts used as

> maps for slaves during the Civil War.... in the case of quilts as maps for

> slaves,

> it might have been too secret to even write in the pages of a diary. >>

> With all due respect to Barbara Brackman, she may have been looking in the

> wrong direction for her research and her conclusions.

> If I'm recalling correctly from my history, it was illegal to teach slaves to

> read and write. Certainly it was not customary or generally done. And those

> few slaves who could read and write would be unlikely to have the resources

> (paper, pen, ink) or the leisure time to keep a diary.

> And if the slaves didn't keep diaries, who else would have? I think the only

> other candidates I can think of are slave owners and abolitionists.

> Obviously, the slave owners aren't going to know about this, let alone write

> about it (assuming such "map quilts" existed). And since assisting escaping

> slaves was illegal, abolitionists are highly unlikely to have kept anything

> that could be used as evidence.

> So I'm not sure it is very likely that there would BE any diaries about slave

> quilts.

> But to give Ms. Brachman's methods the benefit of the doubt - even if there

> were such diaries - we have to wonder how many got preserved, and how many

> were either lost or destroyed or simply have yet to be unearthed by a

> historian.

> Of course, an historian would look for such documentation - but I'm not sure

> it is accurate to infer from its lack.

> Melissa

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:22:28 EST

> From: Lalalawyr@aol.com

> To: qhl@cuenet.com

> Subject: Re: QHL: Quilts as maps

> Message-ID: <32b09495.364dae44@aol.com>

> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

> In a message dated 98-11-13 14:17:16 EST, jocelynm@sw1.socwel.ukans.edu

> writes:

> << What I'm saying is that if you're not sticking to the roads, as the slaves

> probably

> didn't, you need an even MORE detailed map, not a less detailed one,

> which is why I don't believe that any common pieced pattern could

> convey the detail necessary for going from the Deep South to Canada. >>

> Personally, I don't have enough historic background on this issue to have a

> definitive opinion - perhaps we'd all better read the new book before making

> statements of "belief" that may not have any basis.

> However - one thing to note is that a given quilt would not need to give the

> directions to the entire Underground Railroad route (even assuming that there

> was a single route, which was obviously not the case, since people were

> starting from and going to different places). All it would need to give would

> be directions to the next "safe house" along the road, and how to know who

> would help you. And I think it is quite possible that some very simple

> "signals" could do that.

> Also, I'm not sure I accept Jocelyn's conclusion that you would need more

> detailed directions 150 years ago than we would need today to go from Point A

> to Point B. I think it's quite possible we would be the ones to need more

> directions, at least to use the same methods that those people did.

> I think you have to compare apples and apples - not walking and navigating via

> landmarks and the sun vs. driving and navigating numbered highways.

> Orienteering is not a skill we develop or use (even Boy Scouts don't do it

> much these days), so most of us would need a lot more detailed information to

> do it - just as someone from the Civil War era would need a lot of training to

> read an Interstate map and drive a car.

> There are many examples where people a century or two ago had background

> knowledge that we lack today. So the level of information escaping slaves

> would need to navigate might very easily be much less than what we would need,

> even to cover the same ground. Maybe people in that era would understand how

> to interpret something like "Walk a half a day due north, look for the hill

> with the two large oak trees and then head northwest until you cross a creek"

> - while using the same directions, we might get quite lost.

> A good example of this principle is old cookbooks. There are many which assume

> quite extensive knowledge about some basics, and this is knowledge that most

> people today don't possess.

> That is why you will see recipes from 100-150 years ago which just say "make a

> double piecrust" with no proportions or instructions -while today, you might

> have two pages of photo illustrations just to get that step done! (and that's

> if the recipe even assumes you'll attempt to make pie crust!).

> Melissa

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:04:09 -0700

> From: Eileen Trestain <ejtrestain@earthlink.net>

> To: QHL@cuenet.com

> Subject: QHL: RR quilts

> Message-ID: <364DC619.C4F2987D@earthlink.net>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Here I am putting in my two cents worth, but here goes.

> While most of us who are discussing this here, about the feasability of

> RR quilts, I want to state that we are not of the culture which is going

> to hear about this legend in normal state of affairs. Even Marikay

> Waldvogel mentioned in her lecture in Santa Fe a few years ago that the

> WPA project quilts, when researched, gave her the impression that there

> was more to the story than she was told, possible because she was not of

> the culture. Quilts were so common, that it was an easily overlooked

> item in any household. Many whites were so negligent (is that the work I

> want) as to think the blacks ignorant, and unable, when they were just

> as clever, and perhaps much more resourceful than they were ever given

> credit for.

> If RR quilts were present, and I have no reason to believe they were

> not, then we whites (as the enemy) would be kept ignorant of them

> because of their need for secrecy. I see no reason why the continued

> secrecy about them would not remain as part of their culture, long after

> the need for RR quilts existed. Despite the 100+ years that have passed

> since the Civil War, I see many reasons why the black culture would have

> reason to distrust the white. I always hope that quilts will become a

> bridge between the cultures, and am very happy when some of the African

> American people join a quilt guild, and bring their work to share and

> expand our horizons.

> i think that the recent publications on African American quilting are a

> good sign, and I hope to see lots more.

> Eileen,

> speaking as someone who's family lived two miles north of the Mason

> Dixon, and were known for their work building hiwaways for the RR.

> (Stepping down off my soapbox now, and going back into hiding.)

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 12:02:36 -0600

> From: Russell-Hill <russhill@ctesc.net>

> To: Quilting Hert list <qhl@cuenet.com>

> Subject: QHL: URR

> Message-Id: <199811141803.NAA17202@nrtc-pub-mail.affiliate.nortel.net>

> Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

> Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

> Hi everyone,

> I am finding this subject so interesting and enjoy what all are having to

> say. Like a cyper discussion group. Cool. I would like to second what

> Melissa had said in her last two post. If most slaves could not write or

> read all they had was oral tradition. And if it were an everyday event or

> secrative they would not have much to say on it although it may have been

> passed on later. Also folks back in the 1800's had more knowlegde of things

> we don't have or need. Yet we seem to be going back to that way. Like

> planting by the moon or planting crops that were compatable to each other

> in the same area and herbs for medications etc. We think modern is better

> when it is not always.

> In the town where I live now the newly settled Germans were loyal to the

> Federal Gov.because they gave them the opportunity to live in a land that

> was free. When TX voted to join the South in seccession Fredericksburg was

> one town that stayed loyal to the Federals. Many of the families saw their

> husbands and fathers taken from their homes and hung in front ot them

> because they would not sign up with the confederacy. My point is that a lot

> of hidding went on a lot of fear was present and so many of the older folks

> are still to this day terrified to speak about the Civil War and what

> happened here. More of the younger people are showing interest so it will

> finally become a topic we can reseearch more. If you notice it is a lot of

> younger black people researching the Underground railroad talking to the

> elders and asking them what they remember or what was told to them.

> Debbie

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 15:18:50 -0600

> From: "lynreich" <lynreich@coredcs.com>

> To: <qhl@cuenet.com>

> Subject: QHL: URR

> Message-Id: <199811142116.PAA21930@chaos.coredcs.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> Hi all,

> I've been reading about all of your thoughts on quilts used as signals for

> underground railroad escapes. Something we need to remember is that there

> very well may be written record of how slaves were transferred north, but

> that record was encoded for the safety of the family owning the safe house

> as well s the slaves.

> Russell Baker's novel "Clousplitter" is about John Brown and his

> involvement in the abolitionist movement. He and his family actively

> transported escaped slaves from their farm in Northern New York to Canada

> prior to moving to Kansas. The safe houses were changed often because of

> the watchful eyes of the slave catchers and the neighbors who were paid to

> notify the authorities should any action be noticed.

> When we read diaries or household logs and accounts from women, we have to

> remember that sometimes more is said between the lines. We need to look

> for that out of the ordinary comment. For instance, I was working with the

> diary of a woman from Michigan in the period of the 1870,s. She wrote of

> taking a week-end trip. Further research revealed that she had a two year

> old son she was attempting to wean and her overnight stay was in some

> regards an attempt to wean her son.

> I've enjoyed listening to this discussion.

> Lynda

> ------------------------------

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 13:57:14 PST

> From: "Kim Heger" <kheger@hotmail.com>

> To: QHL@cuenet.com, Lalalawyr@aol.com

> Subject: Re: QHL: Underground railroad

> Message-ID: <19981114215715.9171.qmail@hotmail.com>

> Content-Type: text/plain

> Yes, Melissa, I agree with you! Just because no one wrote about it in

> her diary does not mean that it couldn't or didn't happen!

> Kim

> From: Lalalawyr@aol.com

> Date: Sat, 14 Nov 1998 11:23:15 EST

> To: QHL@cuenet.com

> Subject: QHL: Underground railroad

> In a message dated 98-11-13 16:50:39 EST, kheger@hotmail.com writes:

> << she stressed that she

> bases her conclusions on written documentation such as diaries. She

> told us that in all of her extensive research, she had never found

> conclusive evidence written in a diary or journal about quilts used as

> maps for slaves during the Civil War.... in the case of quilts as maps

> for

> slaves,

> it might have been too secret to even write in the pages of a diary. >>

> With all due respect to Barbara Brackman, she may have been looking in

> the

> wrong direction for her research and her conclusions.

> If I'm recalling correctly from my history, it was illegal to teach

> slaves to

> read and write. Certainly it was not customary or generally done. And

> those

> few slaves who could read and write would be unlikely to have the

> resources

> (paper, pen, ink) or the leisure time to keep a diary.

> And if the slaves didn't keep diaries, who else would have? I think the

> only

> other candidates I can think of are slave owners and abolitionists.

> Obviously, the slave owners aren't going to know about this, let alone

> write

> about it (assuming such "map quilts" existed). And since assisting

> escaping

> slaves was illegal, abolitionists are highly unlikely to have kept

> anything

> that could be used as evidence.

> So I'm not sure it is very likely that there would BE any diaries about

> slave

> quilts.

> But to give Ms. Brachman's methods the benefit of the doubt - even if

> there

> were such diaries - we have to wonder how many got preserved, and how

> many

> were either lost or destroyed or simply have yet to be unearthed by a

> historian.

> Of course, an historian would look for such documentation - but I'm not

> sure

> it is accurate to infer from its lack.

> Melissa

> ______________________________________________________

> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

> --------------------------------

> End of QHL-Digest Digest V98 Issue #331

> ***************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:10:51 EST

From: CToczek@aol.com

To: QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: QHL: underground RR

Message-ID: <fcbef4ec.364efd0b@aol.com>

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

While I see merit to both sides of the discussion, I do tend to lean more

towards B. Brackman's research and the issue of "family history." Word of

mouth tales do tend to change....and I'm talking short term even.....

In the military we have a "calling chain" for alerts and deployments, a

pyramid you might say, where the spouse on top calls the one below with the

pertinent information, who calls the next, etc. etc. By no means is it a

perfect system. You would (or maybe not) be amazed by the message content by

the time the alert clears the chain. I'm talking about a span of hours, not a

hundred years.

On another note, I can't help throwing in a tongue-in-cheek observation: what

if another family near the RR route had aired a flying geese quilt on the same

day?

It appears some of us must be from (or near) the Show-Me state, huh? <VBG>

Carla

West Point, NY

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 11:10:29 -0800 (PST)

From: bevquilt@sprynet.com

To: QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: QHL: Re: QHL-Digest Digest V98 #331

Message-Id: <199811151910.LAA14127@m9.sprynet.com>

Content-Type: text/plain

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Recently I met a woman who had inherited a trunk and when

she opened it contained 2 stunning quilts from the 2nd

quarter of the 19th century and a white Marseilles loom made

spread. I had never seen anything like it though it reminded

me of a woven coverlet. I came home and did some research

and find reference to these in "Quilts of Provence" but have

found a great deal of information in "Uncoverings 1982" in

the paper "Marseilles Quilts and Their Woven Offspring" by

Sally Garoutte (p.115). Have any of you seen these, and if

so, what are they selling for? I would also appreciate any

ideas that any of you have on the rarity of these pieces. I

know that I have never seen one before.

Thanks, Bev. the lurker................

---

Beverly Dunivent

HTTP://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/bevquilt

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 14:57:10 +0400

From: Xenia Cord <xecord@netusa1.net>

To: QHL@cuenet.com

CC: bevquilt@sprynet.com

Subject: QHL: Marseilles spreads

Message-ID: <364EB37B.1DD4@netusa1.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Marseilles spreads are pretty common in the midwest; as a dealer in

antique textiles I find them hard to sell unless they are

perfect/unusual. I have sold damask-finish child's spreads with

jacquard/marseilles woven alphabet blocks for over $100, but find it

difficult to get much more than that for full spreads with matching

pillow covers.

The Sears repro catalog for 1898 shows "white bed spreads" and

"Marseilles pattern" spreads for 50 cents (!) each, or $5.75 a dozen.

Others run from 75 cents to 3.25 for the best quality "Very Fine White

Marseilles Bed Spread with a satin damask finish, full regular size,

beautiful patterns, floral center. Money can procure but few handsomer

bed spreads than this one is; it's a spread that is worth a gread deal

more than the money we ask for it." (page 289)

However, I went to a high-end antique show this weekend, and a dealer of

my acquaintance told a customer that his Marseilles spreads were $495

each. Don't know if he sold any at that price.

The spread Bev saw may have been the real thing, not an American-made

copy. Don't have any info on prices of these, but I suspect they are

dearer here than in France.

Xenia, in Indiana

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 17:41:45 -0600

From: Laura Hobby Syler <texas_quilt.co@mail.airmail.net>

To: bevquilt@sprynet.com, QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: Re: QHL: Re: QHL-Digest Digest V98 #331

Message-Id: <3.0.3.32.19981115174145.00688204@mail.airmail.net>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Beverly,

Carolyn Miller from McKinney brought a Marsaille type spread to the VQTS

meeting several months ago. I just phoned her to get the scoop on it again.

She bought it at an antique store in Ft. Wayne, Ind. when she was there

for the NQA show ( July?)

It is in very good condition, clean and she paid $100.00 for it. She said

that she saw several in Houston and the vendors had them for 200-300.

We have been trying to do some more research ourselves on it, and have not

come up with much more documentation than you have listed. Carolyn did tell

me that she ran across another book with some more information, but she had

just walked in the door from the McKinney Guild's retreat....needless to

say her mind was still on retreat mode. She said that she would try to

think of the title and get back to me.

Hope this helps.

Laura

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At 11:10 AM 11/15/98 -0800, bevquilt@sprynet.com wrote:

>Recently I met a woman who had inherited a trunk and when

>she opened it contained 2 stunning quilts from the 2nd

>quarter of the 19th century and a white Marseilles loom made

>spread. I had never seen anything like it though it reminded

>me of a woven coverlet. I came home and did some research

>and find reference to these in "Quilts of Provence" but have

>found a great deal of information in "Uncoverings 1982" in

>the paper "Marseilles Quilts and Their Woven Offspring" by

>Sally Garoutte (p.115). Have any of you seen these, and if

>so, what are they selling for? I would also appreciate any

>ideas that any of you have on the rarity of these pieces. I

>know that I have never seen one before.

>Thanks, Bev. the lurker................

>---

>Beverly Dunivent

>HTTP://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/bevquilt

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:26:55 -0500 (EST)

From: JOCELYNM@delphi.com

To: ejtrestain@earthlink.net, QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: QHL: RR quilts

Message-id: <01J47PKCGR1Y90TFVH@delphi.com>

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On 14-NOV-1998 13:05:43.3 ejtrestain said to JOCELYNM

> If RR quilts were present, and I have no reason to believe they were

> not, then we whites (as the enemy) would be kept ignorant of them

> because of their need for secrecy. I see no reason why the continued

Eileen,

The Underground Railroad was not a black-only effort. Many, many white

people were conductors or keepers of safe houses. If the quilts were to be

hung as a sign to conduct people from safe house to safe house, the whites

would have had to have known about it.

If, on the other hand, the quilts were being made by black people in

slavery as maps to guide them north, I still have the question of how they

could convey enough detail to be of value. 'Walk half a day' means a

considerably different distance if you're talking about fit young adults, or

if there are any children, or wounded people, in the group. These people

were literally betting their lives that when they went up to a house, it was

the right one. If it were easy to teach directions, Harriet Tubbman and

others wouldn't have risked their lives to go back and act as guides. The

very fact she did this is evidence that despite slaves' having knowledge

about orienteering, that you can't teach that sort of crucial detail.

I know I couldn't piece a Flying Geese quilt, one that would be

unremarkable as an example of its pattern type, that could show someone how

to go from my house across town to my office. By the time I tried to show

the 'turn east' and 'turn back north's, it would certainly be a very

attention-getting quilt. And I would have the benefit of having a big scale,

and having my map-user have paved streets to follow. Could I accurately

describe a trip of hundreds of miles, so accurately that the map-users would

be able to arrive at safe houses and avoid the thousands of houses where

betrayal awaited? Could I count on the directions never changing, so that a

quilt that was started last year would still be accurate next year? Boggles

the mind, doesn't it? That's why until someone can explain how a quilt

mapped the journey, I just can't believe that they DID.

Jocelyn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 19:27:28 -0500 (EST)

From: JOCELYNM@delphi.com

To: philspan@bucky.win.bright.net, QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: QHL: Re: URR - Fact or Fiction?

Message-id: <01J47PL2EQ3S90TFVH@delphi.com>

Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On 15-NOV-1998 09:52:03.3 philspan said to JOCELYNM

> However, I have read all these messages with interest. I wasn't aware

>that the quilts were supposed to be actual maps. I had heard the story

>that the center color of the quilt was a message indicating a safe

> I also remember someone telling about how members of the family would

> remember stories differently from each other. This is what happens with

> stories that are not documented. Things get lost/change/added in

> translation. But, the foundation for the story is still there. So I

>would not be surprised that the quilts did have some meaning or

>message back then. I would only wonder how much the stories had been

Lee,

That's exactly what I believe. Quilts were probably used as a signal...

and over the years, people who didn't really understand what they'd heard

turned it into the quilts being used as a MAP. Both legends have survived.

Both have been repeated in books, and there are many people who are fond of

the legends, and resist considering the objective logic behind them. It's

like the people who firmly believe that George Washington chopped down a

cherry tree....it's too good of a story to be muddled with facts.....

The absence of primary sources may not prove that something never

happened, but it's dangerous to assume that something DID, if the sources

don't exist. Lots of legends have cropped up over the years. Like the George

Washington story, many were deliberately created by moralizing educators to

emphasize their point. (Create a lie about GW to prove that lying is bad?

Yep. ) In the late 19th century, making up a story about historical events,

to be able to give a nice moral, was consider OK. The UR, by that time, was

a generation or two removed. Ladies' magazines of the time waxed poetic

about 'quilting like Grandma'. It's entirely possible that some of our

legends about quilts were deliberate creations to romanticize Grandma and

her quilts.

Jocelyn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 15 Nov 1998 20:22:16 EST

From: Baglady111@aol.com

To: QHL@cuenet.com

Subject: QHL: Re: QHL-Digest Digest V98 #328

Message-ID: <82e946e.364f7e48@aol.com>

Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I thank you all for your kind expressions for our appearance on SIMPLY

QUILTS..it was great fun and the most wonderful part is that it has brought us

new members and GREAT INTEREST..

No, they are no longer made..we deal in the original's and have a membership

of aobut 500 who buy/sell/trade among themselves..and as much as we would love

to welcome you to the club..you DO NOT have to be a member to have access to

them..only a better advantage..

I lecture all across our country and it is most rewarding to hear the

wonderful memories guild members/club members share with me...many of our

members are in the club for the access to the sacks. but there are also many,

many members who love the history of our feedsacks/textiles also..they are

just plain FUN!!!

Jane of THE FEEDSACK CLUB

come and see us at our convention in April at the same time of QUILTERS

HERITAGE CELEBRATION in Lancaster, Pa..